Last week, we talked about underearning – earning less than your potential when you desire to earn more. I suggest checking out the last episode if you haven’t heard it yet before you jump into this one.
On this second part of our two-part series on the topic of underearning, I have a special treat for all of you. I am talking to two of my students – Bev Aron and Deb Butler – about money, the mentality that keeps us stuck, and mastering the skill of outearning yourself.
Bev and Deb started out in their careers as chronic underearners, although most people would never categorize them as such because they had “plenty of money.” After becoming Master Life Coaches with The Life Coach School, they weren’t able to break the six-figure mark for some time, until recently.
Join us this week as we talk about the work that Bev and Deb had to do in order to break through the glass ceiling and begin earning well into multiple six figures.
What you will discover
- A review of what it means to be an underearner.
- Deb’s and Bev’s limiting money beliefs and how they worked through them.
- The importance of understanding that having and making money is not contingent upon any other aspects of your life.
- How to become a life coach and earn money as one
- Why people are afraid to talk about how much they make.
- What you can do differently in order to start outearning yourself.
Featured on the show
Welcome to The Life Coach School Podcast, where it’s all about real clients, real problems and real coaching. And now your host, Master Coach Instructor, Brooke Castillo.
Brooke: Well hello my friends. All my friends out there listening and my two best friends on the podcast today. We have such a wonderful treat. We have Bev Aaron and Deb Butler. We call Deb Debs Butler, and they have come onto the podcast today to talk about money and out-earning yourself, which is something I think all of you want to learn the skill of. They have mastered it, and so I asked them to come on the podcast to share that. So let's start. Let me introduce Bev. Bev, tell us a little bit about you.
Bev: Hey. Thank you, Brooke. So I am a master certified life coach with The Life Coach School, of course, best thing in the world to do. And I spend the bulk of my working life as a contractor for The Life Coach School. I consider myself an entrepreneur within the school and my niche basically in that is to say yes to whatever offer me and over-deliver enormously. And then I have a small private coaching practice where I am the deep dive coach where I do what I consider tertiary level coaching. My clients have done a ton of learning on their own, they've listened to podcasts, they've signed up for courses, they've hired healers, therapists, coaches and they've attained so much in their lives and yet they are still suffering.
Brooke: And why do you have such an amazing accent?
Bev: It is my biggest asset, I have to say. It was not great and now I cultivate it.
Brooke: But what is it? Tell us why you have that accent.
Bev: Because I'm from South Africa.
Brooke: Because you're from South Africa and where do you live now?
Bev: I live in Canada.
Brooke: In Canada, okay. Awesome. Alright, what about you, Debs? Tell us about you.
Deb: Well, first of all, one of the proudest things is that I've been with The Life Coach School since the beginning. Bev and I were in your first class.
Brooke: Were you guys really?
Deb: We were in your first class and we were in your first master coach class too.
Brooke: You guys are the die-hards.
Deb: We are the die-hards and we became instant friends and we've been friends ever since, which says a lot for so many things and I decided early on that what I wanted to do because I was a chiropractor before I became a life coach is that I wanted to help women with weight and then what I realized what I wanted to do after learning all the beautiful things I learned from you is that - because what happened to me was when I hit menopause is when I got a rude awakening. I better get my shit together.
And so once I figured that out, I wanted to help women who had been struggling with weight their whole freaking life. They hit menopause, and now they know it's either I got to do something, I can't keep doing the same thing, and I figured it out for myself and I just want to help women do the exact same thing, and that's exactly what I'm doing and I cannot tell you how freeing it is for me to watch them do that.
Brooke: Love it. So good. Okay, so - and of course, those of you women who want to lose weight who are going through menopause, you can find out more about working with Deb at debbutler.com.
Brooke: Sorry. Drdebbutler.com.
Brooke: And of course, we'll have links to all of that in the show notes. Okay, so what we did last week was we talked about the concept of under-earning and what it is, so I highly recommend that you listen to that podcast before you listen to this one because it will inform it and a lot of the questions that I'm going to ask these wonderful women is based on some of the concepts that I taught in the last podcast.
So the first thing that I want to point out is that both Bev and Deb are examples of women who were both under-earners, but nobody would have categorized them that way or looked at them that way because they had plenty of money. And I think this is one of the most interesting things that has kind of come out of this recent research that I've done about under-earning is that most of us who have money, like for me for example, I inherited money when I was younger. I proceeded to give it all away to a cult, but I inherited that money but I was never an under-earner.
I was always out there working and always out there wanting to earn money and wanting to earn lots of money. But there's lots of my colleagues and friends and students who come to me as under-earners that don't even recognize that about themselves. And in fact, they don't recognize that until they start earning lots of money and then they realize, wait a minute, I was an under-earner even though I had it.
So I just want to review. Being an under-earner does not mean that you don't have money, it doesn't mean that you're an over-spender, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're in debt. It may mean that for some of you, but for many of you it doesn't, and so it's almost like the lifestyle that we have, whether it's based on other people's money providing for us really is enabling us to continue to under-earn.
I also want to remind you, and I said this in the last podcast is that under-earning is defined as earning less than your potential when your desire is to earn more. So I want to remind you, I am not suggesting that everyone, all women should earn more money. I'm suggesting that you're an under-earner if you want to earn more money and you're not.
So let's start with you, Bev. I kind of want to go into your history, and this is something I recommend that all of you do is you look at your history of earning money and understand kind of the concepts behind it. So if you think about the Model, what were you thinking that was producing that level of earning for you. And I think especially for us women, it's fascinating to kind of look at the messages and the thoughts that we had when we were younger, how they might have changed, and how ultimately you guys have changed your thoughts to earn so much money. So let's start with you Bev.
Bev: Okay, so yes, I was raised in South Africa, which is a very traditional society and the message that we all got as women was your husband will take care of you and you do like, a nice degree where you can work from home part-time.
Brooke: A little nice degree. A little adorable one.
Bev: You can have a little room in your office, and so that's what I did. And had we stayed in South Africa, it would have been true. We had a family business that would have bought the house, paid for the kids' school fees, and I would have had my little office where I did some speech therapy on the side. And then I came to live in Canada and I worked full-time in a hospital as a speech pathologist and I earned $48,000. 8:30 to 4:30 every single day.
Brooke: So let's talk about that for a minute because I think a lot of the people that listen to this podcast probably make $48,000. I think that's a pretty standard salary for a lot of people in Canada and in the United States. So I was thinking about this this morning actually and I was like, why is it that we all kind of accept that that's an acceptable amount of money to make? Can you remember where your brain was then and did you think that was a lot of money? Did you think that was standard? What did you think?
Bev: I'll tell you what I thought. My dream was if I could just break the $50,000 barrier. I thought it was okay. In my single life I could do fine with it but I had this dream. I was like, if I could just break 50, everything would be different.
Brooke: Right, of course. The bells would ring, yeah.
Bev: Right? And I remember when I became a life coach and I would tell you every year, me and Deb, our goal was 50. We just want to make 50. It's been many years and you would say what are you going to do with 50? I'd be like, I'm going to renovate my kitchen, I'm going to do this and this, and you'd be like, that's a lot to do with $50,000.
Brooke: So why was it 50? Because I think it's that for a lot of women, especially mothers who want to be at home, who don't want to focus necessarily on a big career. So they think maybe that's like - it's kind of like that little amount.
Bev: Yeah, why was it 50? 50 meant that I was a real earner in my mind I thought. And also, I think it meant I would have had to gone to the next level. I would have had to find something else because when you work in a hospital, the salary is the salary.
Brooke: Interesting. Yeah, the salary is the salary so you are limited what you can make by what the other people say.
Brooke: Which is so fascinating.
Bev: And it's funny, I was looking the other day because public salaries in Toronto over $100,000 are public and I'm earning more now than the CEO of the hospital, which I never would have at that point dreamed could have been my option.
Brooke: Okay, so that's the point. Why? Why did you never dream of making hundreds of thousands of dollars when you were younger?
Bev: It was my husband's job.
Brooke: It just never came into your mind?
Bev: No. In fact, I remember we went to London to do a Master's and I did a Master's in management and I was like, I'm going to be a management consultant and work for my kids and fly around the world and then I got pregnant there. I looked at my husband, he's a lawyer, and I said, but you do that, so who's going to raise the kids? I'm not going to do that. And I sent myself right back into the hospital.
Brooke: So fascinating. Now, let's touch on this because I think this is the most fascinating piece is what do you think your husband was thinking about his salary? You don't have to give me exact numbers because you may not know, but what do you think his thoughts were about his money, not yours? In his job.
Bev: Funnily enough, he also had to get over - he thought it was a lot. He would kind of think it was too much.
Brooke: His money or yours?
Bev: No, what he was earning. He would think as his money increased, he had some thoughts that it was a lot or it was too much.
Brooke: Let's think about this. Do you think he thought, if I could just make $50,000?
Bev: Oh no, no, no. He was making more than $50,000 but I think he had sort of some - not shame about it but some discomfort with it. And I spent all my time coaching him to get over it so then he could make more money. Get over his money thoughts.
Brooke: But let's talk about just the amount - so you were at $50,000. Was he thinking beyond $100,000 maybe?
Bev: Oh yeah.
Brooke: Why do you think the difference - it was because the way you all were raised do you think or why was he thinking more than you?
Bev: Yeah, 100%. I don't know any one of my friends who thought beyond that for themselves.
Brooke: Interesting. Okay, let's pause there. Let's jump to you. Bring us up to where Bev is, kind of in the pre-career because you were a chiropractor. I'm going to call them each other's names it's fine. They both have three-letter names, which is confusing. So let's talk about your thoughts about that and your thoughts about your career and how much you could make.
Deb: Well, it was really interesting with me because my husband and I worked together in our chiropractic practice and we started it out that way. And one of the things I really realized early on is that I wanted to work with him, but I wanted him to do most of the work and I wanted to tell him what to do, but I thought that my value was in being able to almost say hey, I own this practice but I barely work. Almost my value was in my husband does a lot of the work - he does most of the work, but I still get the money and it's like, if you have a husband and he earns money and you can spend it, and that - almost like it made me think better of myself.
Brooke: Oh, isn't that fascinating.
Deb: It's the way I went, and it really wasn't until when I was instructing with you at one of your first in-person and you actually coached me on - because I said that a wealthy woman could only be wealthy if she had a husband that was really earning the money. And I would take credit for it and get value out of it without actually doing the work and brag on it that oh, I hardly do anything.
Deb: So you know, when people say well, how much do you work? I was so - I wanted to say how little I worked.
Brooke: Interesting. You know what's so fascinating about that to me is that you were both chiropractors, right? So you both had literally the exact same potential to make more money and even in that situation, you kind of succumbed to the under-earning mentality.
Deb: I mean, I can see it so clearly now, how I wanted to stay under the radar but take full credit. And you know what, you can't ever take full credit if you're not doing the work.
Deb: And I always wanted more.
Brooke: And the thing is you know how much you're earning of the money. You know how much of the contribution is. Now, here's the thing I want to offer, and this is super important is a lot of times I'll coach women who their husbands are the breadwinners and they're the ones earning the money. And I think it's very important in those situations to recognize that the money that your husband is earning, especially if you're home with your children is your money. It's not that it isn't your money.
But it's not money that you're actively earning, and that's fine. Totally fine in every situation where you think it's fine. But in this situation, it's almost like you set yourself up to think less of yourself ultimately because what this does is - and I know this from working with both of you very closely is when I talked about you earning money in your own businesses separate from your husbands, the mentality completely broke down.
The ability to believe in yourself completely broke down, which made no sense to me from the outside because I'm like, listen, you're a doctor, you've been able to do this. Why is this so challenging? And it's really just that mental construct that we all have to get over. And I think it's hard for people in the middle of under-earning to believe that that is true. They think they just need - just give me the next marketing tool or just get me on Oprah, then I'll be able to earn more, which we all know isn't true.
So Bev, why don't you talk about what changed in your mind because you were a life coach for many years, making about $50,000, right? Not being able to bust past that. And I love bringing you on here for all of my old-timers who have stuck with me but still - they're watching kind of these new people come in and make millions and millions of dollars and they're like, what in the heck is happening? I've been with Brooke so long. It doesn't matter that you've been with me longer. What matters is when you change your mind, and that's happened pretty recently, within the last couple years for you Bev, so tell me what happened in your brain that has now allowed you to earn so much more money.
Bev: I think Deb and I were both kind of like, teetering along, earning way under 50 for many years. And then it was in the last three or four years that what changed for me was I just decided making my own money is the best thing in the world. I remember so many years when I would sit around trying to figure out how to get more money from my husband or my brother, my parents or whatever, and then one day I realized if someone would give me a million dollars on the condition that I don't work, I would say no. I think the thought was just making my own money is the best thing in the world.
Brooke: That's so interesting, right? Because I think I remember us actually having conversations about this. Not just me and you but many of us and talking about what it's like to go create value in the world and get a direct payment for that value, and that's why I love entrepreneurship. I love being an entrepreneur within an organization is the same way. The more value that you can create, the more you're able to make. And the sense of power that comes from that versus asking other people who are supposedly better at earning money or more powerful when it comes to money, if they'll share it with us.
Bev: Totally. And I remember walking out of my office every time and saying to my kids, I make money doing work that matters. When I walk out of my office, more energized than when I came in. Why would I not just do more of that?
Brooke: Right. And the answer to that I think is so fascinating is all of our preconditioned programming about money and about our beliefs about money and what we're taught about money when we're younger and I think it's really interesting the pushback that I get on this conversation, which is money doesn't matter as much as family, or money doesn't matter as much as the purpose in the world.
And one of the things that I've really come to is those two things have nothing to do with each other. And I think that's the confusing piece of this argument is you either go after the money or you're a good mother. You either go after the money or you're a good person. And what I want to teach and what I want to make sure everyone understands is being a good person is completely separate from being happy, which is completely separate from how much money you make.
And when you separate those things out from each other and you stop saying well, money can only buy you so much happiness, listen, money's not going to buy you any happiness. Period. It's a separate topic and that's address them separately, and when we address them separately, then we can go to the moon with how much money we're going to make and not feel like it's going to cost us our happiness.
So Deb, you've talked to me about having a belief transformation, believing new things, and that was really what kind of turned everything around you so will you talk a little bit about that so other people can learn from it?
Deb: Yes, because it was huge. And it's not like - I've been with you for so long so it's like you think I would be able to manage my thinking enough to get what I want, and I couldn't. And then in Scholars, specifically the month of believing new things in March two years ago, I said to myself I'm going to do this whole thing. And I was trying to think well, what do I want to believe in something new?
And I thought about the money and I thought about 100K because we all were talking about at that time, being at the 100K dinner and 100K was a lot of money and I was not making that and I always thought like, oh, it'd be so great if I could do that and I would say it to myself. Oh, that's what I'm going to make, but I didn't really believe it.
And when it came to this, I just did the actual work every single day that was in Scholars on I am going to make 100K this year. And once I started to think that and go through the process of all the doubt that came up and all the thoughts that came up from that is then I started to see that it was - for the first time, it was just a matter of math. I mean, how many times have you said that to me? It's just math. How much does it take?
And I could start looking at my numbers and I just - every single time that I started working, I just started figuring out how close is this and in that first month, and it started out like that. Just trying to believe that. And the first month, I made exactly what I needed to make for the first time in my life.
Brooke: It's so fascinating. Here's what's extraordinary about that, especially with your story is so many students who have been with me for a long time - and some people think a long time is six months - have been with me a long time, think that they know everything already. They're like, why do I need to be in Scholars? Why do I need to do this exercise? Why do I need to write this down? I'm a master coach already.
But here's what's extraordinary about you. You were already a master coach. You've been a master coach for years. You joined Scholars and you got sent the homework and you actually did the work, which it really is extraordinary that you did that because it's so easy to say well, I already know this. This is what I tell all of my students. I don't care how long you've been with me, I don't care how many books you've read or podcasts you've listened to. Your results will determine how much you've learned this material and if your results aren't matching it, you have way more work to do. So that's the first point I just think is amazing and it's such a great lesson for everyone listening because I've had people that have said, well, do I even need to join Scholars? I've listened to the podcast.
Deb: Absolutely. All of it.
Brooke: The podcast is the gateway drug, my friends. It's just the beginning. And here's the other thing that I think is so interesting about what you said is remember when you used to think $100,000 was such a lot of money? And what I've noticed is if I can get a student to make 100K, after that it's like gasoline on fire. It's the most magnificent thing to watch. So you're going to make in excess of 300K this year.
Getting to 100K was so painful and took so many - took like a decade to get there. But now that you've done the mental work, I mean, you'll be at a million before you know it and that's the part that I think is just - even for me, wrapping my mind around that is like, so fascinating because - I work with students that are making five million dollars and I work with students that are trying to make 100K in the same industry with the same niche. And my brain just explodes like, this person can barely get to 50K and this person's making five million dollars with the same people that they're selling to, and if that doesn't prove that it's a mental thing, I don't know what.
Deb: I just can't agree with you more and it's where I am now is that I just want to do what Brooke says to do. You know, that sounds so crazy but it's like we did our first in-person training, you had just started your first podcast and you had come in and I thought, how can you do a podcast and do a total training? I couldn't even wrap my brain around how you could do both of those things.
And then like you said, you should do that too. I go yeah, that's a great idea. Well, about two and a half years later, I mean like, I think that's another huge thing is every time I just do what you tell me to do, magic happens but it's magic because my mind switches. It gets tweaked a little bit and it's like, when you really take in what you're saying and let your brain work it, it changes everything because I mean, you can tell people to do whatever and you have amazing things to say, but our brains, it's like I really got it.
And now I get it so much that it's like, all I have to do is just think that and I know this is what we're talking about, our thoughts, but when we can really believe something extraordinary for ourselves, extraordinary because the 100K thing at the time was extraordinary because Bev and I would walk around - I think after every mastermind we're going to go work and make 100K. That's what we would say to each other all the time. But as long as we can still do our yoga, we were really worried about not being able to do yoga anymore.
Brooke: Like, it's not my number one priority but it would be nice.
Deb: I mean, I was so scared of not being able to have my life. I thought work was going to take over my life and I never wanted to...
Brooke: That's huge because I think that we are taught that.
Deb: I think so.
Brooke: It's like, it's either make a lot of money or have a life, and this is what people like - I just can't be bothered with the stress, I just can't be bothered with the pain of running a company, and what I like to say is let's separate it out. How you feel and how much money you make need to be separated out as things to solve because quitting making a lot of money in order not to feel stress, you're doing it wrong if that's how you're doing it. You can make money and do yoga and feel amazing.
Deb: Absolutely. I can. I do it. We do it now. But this is the thing; my life has gotten so - it's so huge and so amazing since I've embraced my work and my value of - because what I'm helping people do, I wasn't doing it before. I just wasn't doing it because I wasn't living up to what I knew my potential was and now that I am, the good that I'm doing in the world for other people, I mean, I got to pinch myself every single morning that I wake up.
Brooke: Me too. I love it. And I didn't have to sacrifice my life. In fact, it was the opposite.
Deb: It was the opposite.
Brooke: What are your thoughts on that, Bev?
Bev: Yeah, it's so true what you said about the programming. As you're talking, I'm remembering that in South Africa, there were only a few moms who worked and it was because they were divorced and they all felt sorry for them. And I thought that in my mind. I have four kids and I would go to school concerts and there was one mom, she had four kids, she lived close to me and her nanny would be there with a video camera because she was a very high-earning executive. And I would be so disdainful of her and I felt so sorry for the kids.
I really had to make that switch, and now I do this stuff. I'm just about to be flying to California for the retreat early and I'm going to be missing an important few days in my kids' life and totally fine. My husband's there, the grandparents are there, and they just see me being so productive.
Brooke: I think that's - let's pause there just for a second because I think this is a huge struggle that so, so many women have is the idea that we have to choose between being a mother and being an entrepreneur or having a big career that makes us lots of money. And I think if we believe that is true and then we will perpetuate that concept and make us feel guilty either way.
And I have to say, I think that whole idea needs to be rigorously questioned because I feel like I raised my kids, I was there for everything that I really genuinely wanted to be there for, and I would cancel other things so I could be with my kids, and there were things that I missed. And I think it was a beautiful, amazing experience for my kids to see me working, but also to be available to them and did I make them dinner every night? Hell no. I did not.
Just yesterday I said to Christian, I said hey - he said what are you making? I said I'm making chicken. He's like, oh, is that for dinner? And we both laughed hysterically. I'm like no, it's for bone broth for me. But I said you know, I do know how to make dinner, do you want me to make you some dinner? And he's like, well, I'm trying to think about something dad has made that I really liked that I'd like you to make. And I'm okay with it. I don't feel guilty about that. So anyway, go ahead, you were going to make another point.
Bev: I do think what you're saying is so true about how this programming shuts us down because I remember sitting with you - I remember two things. The first is sitting at an in-person training that I was teaching with you and you looked at me - you were teaching goal setting. You said Bev, what's your big goal? And I just blurted that I wanted to be at the 100K dinner. I had no idea that was a goal. And then you said to me, if you - you were testing how committed I was. You said, if you don't make it, will you give me 50 grand? And I said yes.
The next day I said to you, Brooke, I was thinking the whole night about where am I going to get 50 grand to give you? You were so stern with me. You were like, don't ever say that. Don't even think about it. And I totally got, oh my gosh, I'm thinking about it so I'm going to go and create. I'm just going to think about 100K. And then I made it to that dinner and you're right about how that changes everything because in the next year, I filled in my form, yes, I can come, and I get back from your team, Brooke says you can't come - you can only come if you made the 100K in your own business, so to separate out what I made with The Life Coach School.
So then I didn't make it but I remember my thought immediately was I'll be there next year. I'm still going to work for The Life Coach School and say yes to everything, I'm going to make my own. It was just like, I can choose. But then I was blocked. It was like the next year you said to me, we were having a meeting about me working for you and you said if this works out, plan to make 300K with me in three years.
And what I remember is if I had this metal over my skull, like this metal cage that had just dinged right off. It wasn't even a vague possibility. I only remembered it recently. I remembered everything you said but that number, because it was like, that number is definitely what good mothers made.
Brooke: Oh, interesting. So when I said to you hey, come work for me, within the next three years we'll have you at 300K, in your mind you thought, impossible, that can't happen, I don't want that?
Bev: I didn't even think. It didn't land. It was like...
Brooke: You were like, conscious of it.
Bev: 150 is awesome. I'm going to make 150. Could still do all of it.
Brooke: So fascinating. And you know, you guys, this has happened for me too. This has been my own reckoning with my own brain and I think you guys have probably heard me tell this story where someone was kind of questioning the authenticity of the Model. And they were saying oh, so you can just put anything you want in that result line, really? Why don't you just put a million dollars in there? Try that out.
And I remember thinking yeah, right. Why don't I? If I can put whatever I want in the R line, why am I putting $300,000? Why am I not putting a million? And then when I put a million in there and I delivered that to myself, to be an example of what is possible, then the next one was why not 10? Why not 100? And as I prove each one of those - it's just adding a zero, right? When you just add a zero and you really do believe that it really is your thoughts, you come up against things that really are just thoughts, that good mothers don't earn more than $150,000 a year.
And you look at the thought and you say, what is that? Where did that even come from? Who taught me that? Is that something I even want to believe? But if you do believe it, that's what you'll create. So fascinating.
Bev: Makes no sense at all.
Brooke: Yeah, right. And the main thing that I hear from a lot of my students trying to get to 100K is I just don't want to work that hard, I just don't want to be that stressed. What do you say about that, Deb?
Deb: That's exactly what I thought for a long time is I was going to have to give up all the things that I love like my yoga and I won't have time for this. And more than that, it was almost like that's not what a woman does. There was just something really messed up in my head about the way I was raised as my mom had a very wealthy husband who was my stepfather and it always looked like that's the way it should be, that you should have to have somebody else and that your value comes from that.
And I lived a lot of my life trying to get my value from somebody else and trying to get money from other people, just like you said. If it wasn't from my family or making my husband try to work hard or getting something from my mom, as opposed to right now, the way I think it's like oh, alright, well all I have to do is - it's all on me. What do I want? And if I do it, all I'm going to do is help more people.
Brooke: That's exactly right.
Deb: It's amazing to me.
Brooke: And then the question changes, right? The question goes from am I going to be a good mother and a good wife and a good person, or am I going to make money? That's the question we've all been asking ourselves, which is a terrible question because of course we're going to choose to be good people instead of earning money if those are our options. But the question then becomes how do I make as much money do I want and be the good person that I want to be, and be an amazing mother and believe that that's what's possible.
And for me asking that question and then being that example is what's the most fun, and that's what I've enjoyed the most over the past three to five years is not only being an example but having y'all be examples of it in different ways. So Bev, you're going to make close to $500,000, half a million dollars, which I've heard you know, you can't be a good mother and earn that much money. And a good portion of that is working for The Life Coach School. You're one of our - if not our highest ranked coach working at the school. You have the most experience, the most expertise, I think the most ours kind of coaching and working directly with me in terms of overcoming discouragement.
One of the things that's so fun, I'm doing a master coach training with you of course and I was thinking about - because you would ask me what else do you want me to do for master coach training and I was thinking. I said our main goal is to provide as much discouragement as possible to our students and see if they can overcome it because the true sign of mastery is can you overcome discouragement.
And this is what I love about both of your stories is look at the years upon years that you've stuck with this and kept showing up even though you had evidence that you weren't going to make $100,000. And in fact, the truth could have been it's not possible. It's only possible for Brooke because she's a unicorn, right? So I can't remember what my question was.
Bev: I don't think you asked it yet.
Brooke: I'm sure it was fascinating. What I'm saying is how have you reconciled making this much money? If you guys haven't listened to my podcast called The Capacity to Have, it's about kind of getting to the result line where the result is half a million dollars that you're earning per year. This isn't your lifetime. This is what you're going to earn in a year. So let's talk about how have you made the adjustments that you've needed to make in order to have that be possible for you.
Bev: Okay, so I want to tell you something you've talked in Scholars in the money training that flipped my brain. I do want to say Brooke, it has been through you not giving up on me and not getting discouraged with me because I think back to hours of coaching on abundance mindset and possibility that you did for me while I was working for you. You were paying me and you were basically teaching me how to think like a person who can make money, so thank you for that.
You were talking about money. I think it was in the Scholars training. It may have been a podcast. You said what if there was a pot of money that was just yours and even if you didn't take it, no one else could take it, so it was waiting for you. So I had never had that thought, I can't make too much because other people will make less, but what it said to me is going towards that pot of money will not take me away from anything else because just like the love and just like my children that were designed for me, so was this pot of money. It all was possible without sacrificing anything.
Brooke: Yes, and just needing to claim it.
Bev: Just all I need to do was do what it took to claim it, which was a lot. It didn't take away from my family and community and all that stuff. It's all there for me.
Brooke: Yeah, it's so fascinating. I love that we're talking about this and I know that for so many people it's very hard to believe. It's very hard for them to wrap their mind around. First of all, the possibility that you could make $500,000 as a life coach in one year is really challenging for people to even - because our programming is about 50K is what's reasonable. And let me give you guys an interesting perspective on this because I think this is so fascinating when you look at belief systems.
So I have this business that's making 25 million dollars a year, which how much money is that? We don't even know. We can't even wrap our minds around that. That's craziness. That's so fun. But I'm hiring people and when I go to hire someone like I'm going to hire a CEO, I'm going to hire a COO, I'm going to hire people to do stuff. How much should I pay these people is the question, right? How much should I pay them in a salary? So do you know where I go to find the answer? Into the world.
What do other people pay? Who decided what other people should make? At what point in history did we decide that a speech pathologist in a hospital should make 50K? When did we decide that and why is that the amount? When you guys really think about it and everybody kind of accepts that oh, this is how much you make and everybody makes about - a reasonable salary is about 50 to 75 if your heart's not really into it. But if you're ambitious, maybe $150,000 is super good.
Who decided that? So when I'm going to hire people, it's not based on what I can afford. It's not based on what's in my budget. It's based on we'll go out in the world and look at what other people are willing to be paid. So I had a girlfriend call me recently and this is a woman - she's very outspoken feminist. She's all about closing the wage gap and making sure the man is told what's what.
And so she called me. This was so fascinating to me. She called me and she said hey, what do you pay your assistant? And I said why? She goes, I want to know what to pay mine. And I thought about that. I'm like, that's such an interesting thing that we do. Instead of going internally and saying it's really important to me that women make a lot of money and I'm going to hire this assistant and I want to make sure I pay her a lot of money and share in that abundance, we're still looking outside to what's been done before.
But here's the problem, my friends. What's been done before isn't working for many of us. So when I think about what I want to pay people, I want to base it on my beliefs that I've chosen. Not on some indeed glass door format that has been put on the internet that tells me what I should pay other people. And paying based on the value that it'll offer my business. Not whether someone's a man or a woman or they went to Stanford or not. What's the value this person's going to add to my business and what would be - another question I always ask is what would be super fun to pay them? What would I really enjoy paying them?
Do you know how fun it is to pay all my coaches so much money for teaching? Because they're so excited and they love it and I'm so excited and I love it. And it makes me believe in abundance because I can make 25 million dollars and because I have a business that makes 25 million dollars, you have a business that makes $500,000. And it's not because - of course not because I'm doing the work or giving the work. You're doing your work. We are all building each other up.
And here's what's true; because you have a business that makes $500,000, you're teaching coaches that will then have businesses that make $500,000. So not even just for women, which of course I love the women, but also for the industry. And also, for the belief in the possibility that we cannot look out into the world that was created - salaries that were created hundreds of years ago, but look out into the world and define it by the future. Not by the past. So that's huge.
Bev: Totally. And I'm in the privileged position now mentoring the new interns who are contractor coaches for you and what I'm so loving is teaching them how abundance is created by just thinking so huge in terms of what your offer and what the possibilities are because I really think what you pay us is outrageous. Not by how many hours and what can I do and what can I get. It's just like, think huge in terms of what you give and then you just get so much. And for you to show that to us and enable that for us and then we go out and get to do that in the world with the people that we hire in our businesses, whole revolution.
Brooke: It's so true. And you know, Bev, you and I have had many conversations about money, and I'm in this very unique position with you where you are my student, first and foremost, but you're also my employee. Contractor employee. And so there's been so many times where you've had a conversation with me about your pay and I can see that it's coming from scarcity. Now, that's an awkward position for me because I'm the one providing you with the payment, but also, I want to teach you if we're going to argue about the pennies, we're going to miss out on the dollars.
And I teach this to all of my entrepreneur students where they're like, well maybe I should offer this little e-book or maybe I should offer this little thing, I know I could make a little bit of money over here. And I'm like, stop looking for the nickels on the floor. Stop negotiating for the pennies and let's focus on the dollars. Let's focus on the big things. And so I've watched you grow so much in terms of being able to think bigger.
It was like one of my employees was asking me well, do we get paid for mileage when we drive to an event? I'm like, the fact that you would spend your precious brain energy figuring out how many miles to drive - but it was just old programming. And of course, when I pointed it out to her she was laughing hysterically. She goes oh my gosh, that's just old programming, old way of thinking, which I mean, of course I would reimburse for her that but it would be like, $11 and the amount of time we would spend calculating it and sending the money, it's just such a waste of time.
So it's kind of awkward for me as the employer to be like, we don't really - I guess we can, but do we want to spend - I'd rather give you a $50,000 bonus later. How about we think about that in terms of the big picture? So Debs, let's talk a little bit about this idea because I think it's important. Before we started the podcast, I had asked you, I said hey, is it okay if I share your actual numbers? Is it okay if I talk about you making $300,000 this year?
And I have another student who's going to make two million dollars this year and I asked her the same question. I said hey, I want to share numbers. Because my perspective is, we have to talk about money out loud. It's important for us to not keep it hidden in the back room. And one of the questions in one of these books that I was researching said how many people would be willing to put how much money they make and the debt that they have on Facebook just as a post? On your about page.
So many of us won't. And this is what's so fascinating about it. There's just shame across the board. So there's shame when we don't make enough and there's shame when we make too much. Isn't that amazing? This is why I tell people like, making a lot of money doesn't solve shame. We just have shame for different reasons. Now we have shame because we're earning so much money.
So one of the things that my other student had said is like, she felt like she didn't want to talk about how much money she made because she felt like it might be disrespectful to her students who are paying her, which it sounds like a very valid argument, that maybe the people paying would feel well, you're just bragging about the money that it's costing me to work with you. And I think that is just a complete fallacy because when I asked you Debs, I said okay, well I'm making a lot of money and you pay me sometimes, so are you mad about that? Are you upset about that? Are you upset that I'm talking about money? And what did you say?
Deb: I said I am so thrilled about the money. I mean, it's thrilling to me about the money that you're making because it also shows me again, what is possible.
Brooke: Let's talk about this. Does it make you mad how much money Amazon's making?
Deb: No. I mean seriously, it's...
Brooke: Because we love Amazon.
Deb: I love it. And it really is just exciting. It's plain exciting. That is the way I feel about all of that.
Brooke: But I do think many of us share this underlying concern that people will hate us if we make a lot of money. And I think that that is actually a valid concern in the sense that I think a lot of people do resent people that make a lot of money because of the way that we're programmed. We're programmed to believe that if you make a lot of money, that you're not a good person, or that you're greedy, or that you don't care about the world, or that all you care about is making money.
And so I want to offer this to everyone who's listening as something to really pay attention to. If you're afraid to tell people how much money you make, you need to find out why. Because people will think you're bragging? Because people will think you're rude? Because the people paying you might find out? Can you imagine if Mercedes thought that? Like oh, we can't share our income because what about all the people that buy Mercedes? They may get their feelings hurt. It makes no sense, and yet that's how we think about it. So how are you going to reconcile all of that moving forward as you're making millions of dollars?
Deb: I hope with great ease because really, when I wake up every day and try to pinch myself and I'm just with people in general, it's like the first thing I really want to do is to say you know how much money I made this month?
Brooke: It's so exciting.
Deb: I mean, it's so exciting and it's not like I want to tell you what a great person I am. That's not the way I want to do it. It's just like, I cannot believe what I am capable of doing when I put my mind to it and every morning when I wake up, I go I cannot believe it. And it's like, I want to tell everybody.
Brooke: Okay, so for sure you guys, there is a woman that's listening to this that doesn't think this applies to her. You know what I'm saying? Who thinks well, easy for them because of whatever reason it is. And they'll come up with ridiculous ones. Bev used to think the reason I was successful is because I was in O magazine once.
Bev: It's true because that's how I found you.
Brooke: Because she's had a podcast for so long. Or it's easy for you Debs because you have Dr. in front of your name, right? What should we say to them? What can we offer to them that might be the thing that makes them go huh, maybe this is possible for me? You have any ideas?
Deb: Well, I think for myself, number one and foremost is that if your result is not what you want from a money standpoint, then it really is worth - I mean, I love the month of believing new things, to do the work on that because it will bring up - it brings up your stuff. If you don't know what your stuff is but you're not making what you want to be making or you're not doing what you want to be doing, maybe you can find yourself up by looking what the feelings are that you're creating that are stopping you from doing what you're doing and doing the work in that specific believing new things was just amazing if you really put yourself and go through the whole thing. And don't stop. I mean, all four weeks.
Brooke: Yeah. All the work in Scholars, especially the money section. But here's what I want to say about that; your brain, my dear friend listener, might be saying that's crap. Changing your thoughts doesn’t change your life. Doing four weeks of work isn't worth $300,000. That's what your brain may be saying. And you know what, friend brain, you could be right. But maybe, just maybe we're right about this. And what do you have to lose?
Do some work, do some models. Don't just listen to us, don't just consume us. But go and do the work. What's the worst thing that can possibly happen? You don't make $300,000. But you're already not making $300,000 so maybe just try it out. I mean, I think that's the best piece of advice that I have to give. I don't know that it'll work for you but you won't ever know if you don't do the work. What do you have to say on this, Bev?
Bev: So my advice is if you keep thinking about why it's easy for me or Deb or Brooke, that's what you're going to keep finding evidence for. When I was going to think that I was going to have to pay Brooke 50K because I didn't make 100K, I would have just created evidence for that. Stop looking for that. Start looking for how it's possible for you and what in our story is possible for you. Look for the parts that you can do and lastly, very importantly, don't hang out with people who keep talking about why it's easy for Brooke to do it because we're in each other's thoughts all the time. Hang out with people who believe it's possible.
Brooke: Yes, that is so such good advice because you inadvertently attract people that have the worst possible thoughts because they feel familiar to you, right? And then you can all commiserate by how all these other coaches are making all this money and you're not, and they're all unicorns and you're not, which actually, I think I really want to kind of call y'all out on that that are doing that because it's actually quite degrading to say to someone you can do this because you're special, as if we didn't have to do the work.
Here's the deal. We're all women, we all got - not all of us. I'm listening, I hear you dudes. I know, I love you. Here's the thing; we all have the same program and we all have the same brains. We all live in the same world. And to say that when you haven't done this internal work, to then look at those of us who have and to say that we're just special or lucky or different is not useful in any way to any of us.
So I want to recommend that you do this work all the way through. Do the thought work. I could be right about this. It could just be the way you're thinking, the way you're feeling, the way you're acting. That could be why you're not getting the results that you want. And listen, you could have been with me for many, many years and told yourself I've been doing this. Like, Debs could easily have said well, I've been doing this work for seven years, it doesn't work.
Easily could have said that. But instead she's like wait, I'm going to do this work now, I'm going to dive in, I'm going to do it all, I'm going to really see if this works because the only way I know if it works is if I actually do it. And you might surprise yourself. It might actually work. And this is why when people come to me and say this isn't working, as if the program isn't working, the only thing that's ever not working is your thinking. And I think people want to reject that, but why? Wouldn't that be amazing if that is true? I've found it to be extraordinarily amazing.
Deb: You know what Brooke, you know what I think when you're saying this is once I realized this for myself 100%, this is also what - once I can do this, this is what I offer all my clients.
Brooke: Of course.
Deb: And it's like their results are getting so much better.
Brooke: Of course.
Deb: And it's because I did it for myself first and then it's like once you know how to do it for you...
Brooke: Because think about this. When you think about making $100,000 or $300,000, it's currently impossible in your brain if you're not there yet. That's the nature of it. Of course, it's impossible. And someone coming in with menopause that has gained 20 pounds since going through menopause and has never been able to lose weight their entire life, thinking about themselves 30 pounds lighter is equally impossible.
Deb: It feels the same.
Brooke: Well exactly. And look how similar it is. In order for me to earn money, I have to be a bad person. In order for me to lose weight, I have to beat the crap out of myself. And what we're saying is oh no, you're going to love yourself to both of these destinations and what you'll realize is it's not even the money that matters. It's not even the weight that matters. What matters is that you learned how to love yourself into what you want.
Deb: Oh my god, and you know, it's that believing in yourself and it's like if I can do this - I think the making of the money is I'm just still an example of what is possible if it's losing the weight or making the money, it's like once I taught myself how to do it, I can teach other people how to do it and it becomes so much bigger. I mean, I cannot believe the work that's going on now with my clients is so much bigger than what it was and the only thing that really changed was in my head.
Brooke: It's such a revelation.
Deb: I mean, my program is the same.
Brooke: I love it. I love this so much, you guys. I so appreciate you coming on the podcast and being so vulnerable and open and sharing and I really - what I hope the takeaway is is like, even if you've been at this a while, even if you feel like you've been doing the work, if the results don't match, you still have more work to do and it's possible to do that work and make a change, even if you've been at this a long time.
You know, one of the things I tell people all the time is it doesn't matter how many years you've been trying to lose weight. It's totally irrelevant. Doesn't matter how many years you've been trying to feel better. Doesn't matter how many years you've been trying to make more money. That's totally irrelevant to what's possible in your future. And so this whole concept of out-earning yourself really is just sitting down, looking at your earning history, looking at what you're currently making and then deciding and knowing how much you want to earn and believing that that is possible, and believing that it's possible without sacrificing all your goodness. In fact, the opposite.
Bev: Or yoga.
Brooke: Or yoga. Listen, you never have to give up on the yoga. The yoga will help you of course pursue that dream, and then maybe if the yoga studio is a little bit too far, then eventually you just build a yoga studio.
Deb: You know, the other thing that I want to say too is I'm at the age where people are retiring.
Brooke: How old are you?
Brooke: God, you look amazing.
Deb: Let's talk about it. Tell me some more.
Brooke: So we're on Zoom. You guys won't be able to see her but please send a picture to me so I can post it.
Deb: Oh please, I'll be happy to do that. But here's what I want to say about that is that there's so many people, they ask me so are you retired or when are you retiring or all these things that happen in this age group. And I am telling you, it's like I turned 65 and I go oh my god, I am so excited and I am so on fire about what I want to do in this world. I'm not calming down. I'm getting revved up.
Brooke: Oh my god, I'm so glad you said that.
Deb: And this is so important for people. It's like I don't know what retirement even means. To me, retirement is doing something that you love, making a lot of money and having time to do all the things that you love with it.
Brooke: Right. And that's what you're doing.
Deb: That's exactly what I'm doing.
Brooke: So you made your first $300,000 a year when you were 66.
Deb: Well, it's going to be more.
Brooke: But I mean, think about that y'all.
Deb: I'm telling you, I'm just getting started.
Brooke: I love it. I love it. She's like, the first time I made a million dollars in a year was when I was 70.
Deb: That's what I'm saying. I mean, that's what I'm saying. That's what I want to say.
Brooke: It's so genius. It's so brilliant. And you're so vibrant and young and excited about your life, and I think that will add so much value. I can't even tell you how many times people say to me, I want to become a life coach but I'm 56.
Deb: I know it. I hear it all the time.
Brooke: What are you talking about? What does that have to do with anything? So I love that example and I love that so many of us are just getting warmed up.
Deb: We are just getting warmed up. Oh my god.
Brooke: Is that how you feel too, Bev?
Bev: 100%. I feel like anything is possible. I just have to decide. There's no rush.
Brooke: No rush.
Bev: Do I want to do more this year? Just it's all huge. The possibility is huge and I just decide.
Brooke: Yes. So good. I love you guys so much. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. You know I could talk to you for another hour but my podcast is usually a half hour and this is already an hour so we're going to end it here. But listen, if you want to work with Debs on weight loss, you still work in small groups?
Deb: I'm doing small groups in the advanced and all the beginning is all individual coaching to get them to the next level before they go into a group.
Brooke: You want to work with a master level coach on your weight loss if you're in menopause, she is for sure the one. Drdebbutler.com.
Deb: That's it. You got it.
Brooke: If you want to work with Bev, if you're a seasoned self-helper and you feel like you just can't quite figure out what isn't working, you can go to bevaaron.com and work with her.
Bev: Yes. My waiting list is very, very long but they can buy my book, which is going to be coming out.
Brooke: Okay. You can buy Bev's book. And the other way that you can work with Bev possibly is by signing up for coach training. She's one of our instructors in coach training and you might get lucky enough to get her as your instructor. All of our instructors are amazing but Bev has just got that little extra sauce, my friends.
Deb: Hey Brooke, can I say one more thing?
Brooke: Yeah, do it.
Deb: Can I just remind people about my podcast that I so happily did after you told me to do it two and a half years later?
Brooke: Yes, of course. What is your podcast? Tell us.
Deb: It's Thinner Peace and Menopause and Beyond.
Brooke: Okay, say it again.
Deb: Thinner Peace...
Brooke: Thinner Peace. Not inner peace, my friends, but thinner peace.
Deb: Thinner Peace and Menopause and Beyond.
Brooke: You can probably find that by looking up Deb Butler on iTunes.
Brooke: Awesome. Alright my friends, I love you. Have a great week everyone. Talk to you next week.
Hey, if you enjoy listening to this podcast, you have to come check out Self-Coaching Scholars. It's my monthly coaching program where we take all this material and we apply it. We take it to the next level and we study it. Join me over at the TheLifeCoachSchool.com/join. Make sure you type in the TheLifeCoachSchool.com/join. I'd love to have you join me in Self-Coaching Scholars. See you there.